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MM3-Cathedral of Carnage
06/03/2013, 17:24:55

    St.Germaine writes:

    What directions do they want the idol heads to face? I've got a walkthrough AND the official cluebook... but neither tells me that! That I can find anyway,,, any help appreciated.




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Clue, and concealed ***spoiler***
06/04/2013, 08:51:28

    Peter2 writes:

    The clue to that is written on a wall in The Temple of Moo. If you want the full spoiler, Select the hidden text between the highlights

    Highlights on
    From left to right N W N E S
    Highlights off





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Heh. Now I know what is that [NWSE]{5} for. (I even haven't to select the hidden spoiler.)
06/09/2013, 11:51:04

    ramillies writes:





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Is that your notation?
06/10/2013, 05:08:36

    Peter2 writes:

    Because it's not the actual answer.




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Oh, that's a thing called regular expression,
06/11/2013, 12:44:53

    ramillies writes:

    shortly 'regex'. It's good for determining whether a string of characters is in certain form (which is defined by regex). Here [NWSE] means 'any of characters N, W, S, E', {5} means 'exactly five times'.
    (Sorry for it; as a programmer, I just sometimes use ... say, inappropriate means of expressing myself.)
    (I don't remember how exactly the answer runs, but it's in my book of MMIII notes. But I think it is (HL)NWNES(stop HL).)




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Aah, right! It's a l-o-n-g time since I did any programming, ...
06/11/2013, 14:28:43

    Peter2 writes:

    ... and I don't think that terminology (if that's the right word) had been developed when I was active in that area.

    Nothing inappropriate about it, though!





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Well, I think that when you were active in the programming, it was long before I came to this world.
06/11/2013, 16:59:39

    ramillies writes:

    That could be some BASIC or things like that, am I right? If so, no wonder that you didn't know.
    Most of you here went the MS-DOS way. I had the luck to be able to go the Unix way and still have access to those great games developed under DOS. (Great DosBox!) I think that

    1. regexes were could be maybe only dreamt of when you were doing programming,
    2. and they were heavily bound to the Unix way. (Now they aren't; it's such an useful and mighty tool that they are available under nearly every language and nearly every platform. Nearly.)


    P. S.: Even in my short life I managed to make some experience with BASIC. A friend of mine had a BASIC-programmable calculator! (Sadly, the batteries rapidly deteriorated and now the whole calculator is just a dead artifact.) We would sit next to each other, in the row at the far side of room. We wrote a math test on quadratic equations (which are solved by applying a simple formula) and were permitted to use a calculator. So we had used it and after running the program for every equation given we drank toasts of victory. (It was just a tea and its taste was rather frightening. But we've won!)





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I started out as a Fortran programmer.
06/11/2013, 19:53:12

    Peter2 writes:

    Then when Basic became available, mainly because formatting the output was so much easier, I switched to that - especially when I got access to a Basic compiler. I wrote a couple of games myself, but computing was advancing so fast I couldn't keep up. I reckon this was roughly when C was coming in as a programming language, and that was pretty well my last input.

    I'd played the Crowther-Woods "Adventur" game - sometimes referred to as Colossal Caves - on an old Cifer computer running under CP/M rather than MS-DOS, and I was delighted to get my hands on the version of it that Level 9 wrote. I thoroughly enjoyed that and its two sequels, Adventure Quest and Dungeon Adventure. Another superb game of theirs was Lords of Time, which I played through a number of times.

    Level 9 had a knack of writing games which were testing but not stupidly obscure. I remember one text-only adventure game where, to get the crucial piece of equipment (a key) you had to smell a flower, whereupon the pollen would make you sneeze, and when you whipped your hanky out of your pocket, the key would come with it. But you couldn't find the key by Searching your Pocket, oh no, much too simple! *Grrrrr!* That sort of stupidity really used to wind me up.

    Similarly, Space Quest 1-3 were excellent, but 4 really got ridiculously obscure. In the opening scenario, you had to catch a rabbit, and the only way of doing it was hide in a tiny alcove and use a rope snare. Maybe I missed something, but I could see no clue telling me where to hide to do this, and it took forever to work it out by trial and error. By this time, I'd pretty well lost patience with the adventure games, and I was glad to find the Might and Magic and Eye of the Beholder series of RPGs.





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Well, I've never heard about any of those games
06/13/2013, 13:58:23

    Ramillies writes:

    I don't know FORTRAN, but I have a compiler for it on my computer actually! (Because I use gcc and FORTRAN compiler is, don't ask me why, also the part of this compiler suite.)
    Yes, BASIC was neat. I liked it, but I don't do any programming in it now. (I use C.) (When our calculator lived, we used to write text adventures for it too --- there was one line of 24 characters to print! Mechanics were simple and gamebook-like: you are at a location, you're given a description, ways you could go and their numbers. Then you were prompted for a number and the program would goto to the given line. (Yes, very mistake- and cheat-prone. But we liked it nevertheless.))
    I share your opinion on adventures. I never liked them. First "real" computer game I played were Heroes, and since then I'm stuck with turn-based strategies and RPGs. (By the way: have you played the "classic" 4X strategy, Master of Orion I? I'm amazed with it, and so am I with Master of Magic.)
    In fact, I'm a turn-based man. MMs are great because they are either turn-based (like 3), or they at least provide turn mode (like 6) (which I lean on heavily. But who doesn't ). I like making tactics and overmaneuvering my enemies, so adventures are not really for me.




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I was never fond of strategy games.
06/13/2013, 19:30:29

    Peter2 writes:

    I don't know why, but I never took to them. I tried one of the early Heroes of Might & Magic games - either 1 or 2, I think - but I found it thoroughly boring. When you were travelling, you were crossing a map rather than proper territory, and all the battles were of the same format, your party lined up on the left, and the opposition lined up on the right, with a bit of perfunctory scenery so you could distinguish one place from another.

    There were two early high-level programming languages. Fortran stood for FORmula TRANslator, and was for the maths-biased uses, and I was told that Cobol (which I never knew anything about) was for business and admin uses. The only low-level language I ever tried was Assembler Language, but I never got very far with it.

    I believe Colossal Caves and Zork were the first two computer games to get widespread attention. I'm not sure which was around first, but I found Colossal in the mid 1980's. I never played Zork, though - more's the pity. I would have liked to have a decent crack at it, but it needed a bigger computer than any I ever had access to, and by the time I had one, Zork had been superceded by games I preferred.

    The original Crowther-Woods adventure game, Colossal Caves, did have one outstanding use for the designers of the very early computer chips such as were used in the Sinclair Spectrum and the Oric. If you could play the game and finish it successfully, your new chip had been properly designed.

    I always reckoned that Eye of the Beholder 2 (The Legend of Darkmoon - came out in the early 1990's) was the only "first person view" RPG that got close to Might & Magic 3. That and its predecessor (Eye of the Beholder) were designed by Westwood Studios, but they handed over the design for EOB3 (Assault on Myth Drannor) to some other people who weren't nearly as good. No EOB4 was ever made.

    There were some other fairly good ones, Ultima Underworld, and especially Ultima Underworld 2, but I never rated them as highly as the Wizardry games "Bane of the Cosmic Forge" and "Crusaders of the Dark Savant", and I rated those below the MM games.





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Assembler? Well, that's a funny language!
06/14/2013, 11:04:03

    Ramillies writes:

    I'm not fond of it either. The oldest programming language I've ever learnt was probably BASIC. Cobol I've seen only in book which even wasn't mine.
    Using games for testing chips? Great!
    Well, I've never played Eye of Beholder, but I've at least heard the name. Wizardry 7 seemed weird to me --- I spent whole hour rolling through some dungeon, at regular intervals I was pestered by bugs and bats and when I finally found the way to the next region, there were three rat burglars and they killed me.


    You are of course right that in strategy games, sceneries are kind of generic, but I don't see anything bad about the map. I liked it as much as I liked going through the terrain in 1st person view in MMs. A map is actually nearly necessary for a strategy. (I don't like strategies that succumbed to today's trend of 3-D-ization. Yes, it looks beautiful, but it's not very convenient to control.) And even when, for example, battles are always done through the same scheme, the fact that there is always someone else at yours and your enemy's side makes it very repeatable for me. This way I can even enjoy crushing much larger force ... because the AI sometimes makes really stupefying blunders and I can have the delight of thinking how to combine all my spells and units and enemy's mistakes in order to ultimately destroy him.
    (Now this is a little sum of reasons why I'm a turn-based person.)




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There were two things I really didn't like about the Wizardry games.
06/14/2013, 15:50:08

    Peter2 writes:

    The first was the way that the monsters got stronger as your own party got stronger. A fully tooled up knight in full armour killed by a pack of rats? Come off it!

    The other one, which I thought was a total waste of time and effort, was the way that areas respawned automatically when you left them. I don't know about you, but I tend to select one area as "home base". In MM6 it is usually New Sorpigal, in MM7 it has to be Harmondale, and in MM8 it is usually Alvar. Whichever one I picked in the Wizardry games, I had to fight my way through it whenever I returned, and that got to be both a bore and a distraction from what I was trying to do.

    The thing that I liked about the Eye of the Beholder games was that I could import my party from one game into the next. There was one point in EoB2 where you could regenerate a whole series of monsters (demons, IIRC) by closing a door, and I once spent I don't know how long regenerating and killing them to get my party up to the point at which the wizard and priest could learn the top spells - like Time Stop - in EoB3. It was very satisfying to find out what the Dark God actually looked like! But at any level, he was a lot easier to dispose of then Dran Draggore at the end of EOB2.

    There isn't anything bad about the map in the Heroes game. It's not inherently worse, and it's not inherently better, it's just different. My personal preference is that I would rather travel from place to place across real country than along a map, but I'm fine with anyone who prefers otherwise. Wouldn't it be boring if we all liked the same thing?

    I like exploring. Given a piece of territory, I want to go everywhere reachable, and do everything doable. I even found a way to explore most of the mountains on the Isle of Fire in MM3. That is supposed to be impossible, but I found a way to do it. There's nothing there, of course.





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Well, I wouldn't like those too should I get so far.
06/15/2013, 01:19:24

    Ramillies writes:

    Actually, my "home base" was, as you told, in NS, though it moved in the earlier stages of the game --- until I got Town Portal. Then when I was getting a beating, I casted Lloyd's Beacon to save my position, Town Portal to NS, and hooray! there's the cheapest temple in the game! So I went in, got cured of every wound and disease I could possibly have, recasted my 15 /or how many/ spells and beaconed back in the action.
    Why couldn't you know how does the Dark God look like otherwise?


    >>> but I'm fine with anyone who prefers otherwise. Wouldn't it be boring if we all liked the same thing?
    Yes, of course! I was trying to express that this is only my point of view. It was not meant as a try to convince you to accept my point of view.
    And yes, for the people who like exploration the Heroes games aren't very good choice. If you want to see everything and do everything, there's just a bunch of buildings and terrain shapes on the map to explore and recruiting armies and conquering enemies as the only things you can do.




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