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Learning
07/13/2014, 11:36:29

    Xanax writes:

    Just wondering what thoughts folks have about putting points into learning above master level. My party is currently level 49 (KKKA). They've been masters in learning for quite a while and I fight with a teacher and instructor in my party. My archer is master in all 4 magics but has a couple other things to catch up on; everyone else is master in everything they need - weapons, armor, repair, etc. plus individuals in disarm and merchant and have extra points in most of those.

    I've been thinking that shortly I might chunk, say, another 3 levels into learning. It's hard for me to figure out the math on how that would work out in the long run and just looking for anyone's thoughts on the matter.

    Thanks.





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I've never actually worked out the maths on this, but . . .
07/14/2014, 04:40:12

    Peter2 writes:

    . . . my general approach is to get mastery as quickly as possible for my characters' core skills, expert for the peripherals including learning, and then boost learning so as to get the peripherals up. The core skills for me in an ACSS party are Water for one sorcerer, Air for the other, Body for the cleric, Disarm for the archer, and Bow and a primary weapon skill for all. Considering that the Armour skills all require 10 for mastery in this game, I usually content myself with getting my characters up to expert quickly, and raising them to mastery later. Merchant IMO is not a core skill, but it is one of the most important of the peripherals for one character, and you save a lot of money by getting the basic skill quickly for all your characters

    I take a scholar and an instructor, so that I get a fair XP bonus, but I never have to put any points into identify and I don't have to swap things around to identify them. I have to get rid of the first pair to take the carpenter and stonemason into my party to complete the 1st cleric promotion, but I always replace them as soon as the temple is repaired — certainly before I go to get credit for the quest.

    That seems to work for me.





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Interesting
07/15/2014, 08:28:41

    Xanax writes:

    I've never hired a scholar. I usually get identify for my merchant and work it up to master after I've gotten to master in merchant. Other than that, my priorities are similar early on - air, water, disarm.

    As far as NPC's I generally have a gate master and merchant (or duper) until I have a master in water, with the same interruption for the cleric promotion. As early as I can I'll go to instructor/teacher but then for a while I'll swap the teacher for a merchant when I'm buying, selling and training. I also aim for master in repair for all 4 characters as I get to the mobs that break things.

    This game has been a little different in that the archer had to master all 4 magics which left her well behind in other things for a while.

    Still wondering about putting points above 7 into learning; I think it works out better in the long run but just wondering what others thought.





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Learning multiplies all XP the character gets by 1 + (level * mastery)/100,
07/16/2014, 10:00:09

    Ramillies writes:

    where mastery is 1 for ordinary skill, 2 for expert and 3 for master. So it is also written in the skill description in the game.

    My priorities: air, fire, disarm, merchant.





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I think I didn't phrase my question very well...
07/16/2014, 21:47:10

    Xanax writes:

    I kind of knew that. What I was specifically asking about was the value of putting points into learning above level 7 (master level).

    For example, say you were in your 40's and did three more levels of learning, 8, 9 and 10. That would cost you 27 points, or three levels worth of skill points at that level. That would give you an additional 9 percent experience bonus. So you'd think that you'd get a little less than one extra level for about every 11 levels after that. Except you don't. Because the amount of experience required for each level goes up so rapidly, by the time you hit level 80 (for example) by my calculations you would only have gained a little less than 2 additional levels and still wouldn't have earned back those 27 points.

    The extra levels might be worth it, I guess, but it just doesn't seem all that worth it to me, especially since the skill points are much more valuable, relatively speaking, at lower levels. And, if I remember correctly, the experience bonus doesn't apply to experience gained from completing quests, so it would end up being even less than that.

    Hope that clarifies.





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And as I think about it, those numbers aren't right either
07/17/2014, 05:33:45

    Xanax writes:

    I think it's more complicated than that because you're adding a bonus on top of a bonus. Once upon a time I was going to be a math major but I'm too old to remember how to work all that stuff out any more.




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Let me get even more boring (I worked it out).
07/17/2014, 08:11:54

    Xanax writes:

    I think I figured out how to do this. Say you're level 45, already master in learning and you decide to put one more level into it. You spend 8 skill points to raise learning to level 8. That should give you an additional 3 percent bonus on experience.

    But that's a bonus on the base experience. Since you're already master and IF you're fighting with a teacher and instructor then you already have a 21 percent bonus for learning mastery and 25 percent for the two NPCs for a total of 46.

    If you earn 100 points in base experience you actually get 146 points with that bonus. The extra level in learning gives you another 3 points (3 percent of 100). Relatively speaking, you have an additional bonus of about 2 percent over what you were getting before.

    I went and looked at the total experience numbers by level on Mandate Mania, calculated the additional experience you need to go from one level to another and by my calculations, that would give you (starting at level 45) one additional level when you reach level... 118. If you put 3 additional levels (8, 9 and 10) into it at level 45 (spending 27 skill points), you end up with an effective bonus of about 6 percent and you get an additional level about every 20 levels after that. Unless you're trying to maximize levels past the end of the game, I guess I'm not seeing that it's worth it.





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Learning maths
07/18/2014, 16:56:10

    Chandor writes:

    It's a little less than that, since when you get your first point of learning you also get a 9% bonus. So if you are l7 in learning you get 30% bonus (21+9). With the NPCS, you are at 55%. 3 extra levels gets you another 9%, taking you to 64% for an effective bonus of 164/155 -1 = 5.8%. Going from 0 to 1 however gives you 135/125 -1 = 8%. So the best bang for the buck is just to buy learning and get the NPCS.
    Incidentally the maximum possible XP gain rate is 3.14*base (l60 master learning = 1.89, NPCS = .25, +1 for base is 3.14. Killing one gold dragon at that rate gives you 8635xp for each party member. An Arena run at Lord (at a high level) nets you 172,700xp each. Clearing the hive + 1 Arena run (a typical week post-game) gets you somewhere between 450K and 500K for everyone




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Thank you. Great information.
07/18/2014, 18:17:12

    Xanax writes:





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Actually, I tend to feel that Learning is fairly useless
07/23/2014, 05:44:34

    salmonellus writes:

    The reason that I'm not keen on learning is that it doesn't work the way that you think it ought to.

    Here's what I mean. You have enough Learning to gain 10% extra XP. This bonus means that by the time you would normally have accumulated enough XP to reach level 50, say, without Learning, then with it you would be at level 55 ? Surely that's a 10% gain ?

    Well, no, it doesn't work that way, because the increased XP to reach each new level works out as a *percentage* of that needed for the previous level. So in fact, any level of Learning doesn't compound levels as you go up - it gives you a *constant* gain in levels as you go up.

    To clarify - if you have enough learning to keep you one single level higher at level 20, then when you reach level 100 you will still be exactly one level in advance of where you'd be otherwise.

    I hope I've phrased that properly !





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More maths
07/23/2014, 14:31:32

    Chandor writes:

    Well not quite. The XP needed to gain each level does increase as the level goes up, but it does so at a linear rate. Each level costs 1000 more than the last. So Level 10 costs 9,000 xp, and level 11 costs 10,000 xp, a 10% increase. However Level 20 costs 19,000 xp and level 21 costs 20,000 xp, a 5% increase and at level 100, level 100 costs 99,000 xp and level 101 costs 100,000 xp, a 1% increase.
    You need 190,000 xp to get to level 20 and 210,000 xp to get to level 21, so (assuming you somehow magically got the learning at the start of the game), you need 10.5% learning bonus (level 2 learning will get you 11%).
    You need 4,950,000 xp to get level 100. A 10.5% bonus to that gives you 5,469,750 xp, which gets you level 105. 5 extra levels for the total investment of 1000 gold and 1 sp for each person doesn't sound too bad... If you get level 7 master and the 2 NPCs you get 55% bonus, giving you 7,672,000 xp, level 124 and 380 extra sp per character. All for the cost of 8000 gold and 27 sp for each character.




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