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I'd like an opinion from the "gurus"
06/22/2005, 18:28:48

    Zedd writes:

    regarding cheating.

    Is it considered cheating to edit in chain for a sorcerer just to train him in it so as to overcome the armor bug penalty for leather. He does not actually wear chain, but leather.





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A purist would say yes; I would say no.
06/22/2005, 18:50:47

    Peter2 writes:

    You're overcoming a bug, and as long as you don't actually equip him with chain, I don't think that's any more cheating than is editing in another key when the Gharik's Lab key bug strikes.

    I play the v1.0 game, and a "feature" in there allows me to train my sorcerers in Chain without using the editor. And I do it. I also train my cleric and archer in Plate, for the same reason.





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I'm with Peter2 on this one, what you're doing is just correcting for a bug in the program.
06/22/2005, 19:13:46

    Dragon writes:

    Cheating implies that you are gaining an advantage over someone else, since you are not in a contest with others or gaining anything other than your own satisfaction this is not cheating.




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Well said Dragon
06/23/2005, 03:36:35

    Greate Pier the Worse writes:





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Thanx Folks, those
06/22/2005, 22:50:15

    Zedd writes:

    were my sentiments exactly . . henceforth that is what I'll do.




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i agree. it isn't cheating to overcome a harmful bug.
06/22/2005, 23:03:24

    Knightly writes:





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armor training bug
06/22/2005, 23:06:52

    Mike Kienenberger writes:

    I haven't heard of this bug.

    What is it?





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Hi MIke, the Armor
06/23/2005, 02:40:32

    Zedd writes:

    training bug is ASAIK present in all versions of the game. It was never fixed. Simply put it requires Master in Plate to overcome the recovery penalty in chain. chain for leather. There is no way to overcome the recovery penalty for plate.

    Item of recovery do help, of course, but as I understand it they are more for weapons than armor.





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And of course leather overcomes the penalty for shield.
06/23/2005, 11:17:38

    Maybeth writes:





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That's really weird -- I didn't realize that.
06/23/2005, 11:19:10

    Mike Kienenberger writes:





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Maybe you could ook into it, Mike . . a little patch perhaps?
06/23/2005, 12:52:28

    Zedd writes:





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patch
06/23/2005, 18:06:22

    Mike Kienenberger writes:

    I wish I could, but that'd be a patch against the MM6.exe file.

    The only one I know capable of doing such a thing in recent history would be Mok.

    Sounds like a simple off-by-one error that would be easy to fix.





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Hm, I can try to look at the code but...
06/24/2005, 05:20:02

    Mok writes:

    I don't really understand what exactly is the problem and how can I test it easily to see if I changed anything?

    BTW: I'm more familiar with M&M7 code, anyone knows if the problem was fixed there?

    -Mok





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Yeah, the two of you should really get to know each other.
06/24/2005, 08:14:32

    Bones writes:





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The person who identified the armor recovery bug suggested..
06/23/2005, 02:34:16

    Ragwort writes:

    using an editor and adding chain master level 1 to get the recovery that leather master should provide. Seems like a waste for someone w/ V1.0 to use the armor feature to add chain and then use experience points to become chain master.




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Chain master?
06/23/2005, 05:26:35

    Peter2 writes:

    I understood that just learning chain would overcome the recovery penalty bug for leather. I certainly don't put any skill points into it.




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values
06/23/2005, 18:11:57

    Mike Kienenberger writes:

    If it's an off-by-one error (the simplest explanation), then it's reading from the chain skill value rather than the leather skill value . So it'd matter what values you had set for your chain (or plate) skill. Or the skill numerically that follows plate, which I believe is fire magic in all three games.




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Right. So if I understand you correctly, I should reset...
06/23/2005, 19:13:29

    Peter2 writes:

    ...the Chain skill and expertise to the same level as the Leather skill. Is that right? If I do that, I'll definitely use an editor.




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probably
06/23/2005, 20:07:14

    Mike Kienenberger writes:

    That'd be my understanding.
    It's all speculation, though.

    It'd be interesting for someone to devise a test to see if the skill level is checked or just the skill's existance.





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Since leather "Recovery penalty eliminated" requires leather mastery..
06/24/2005, 03:12:44

    Ragwort writes:

    chain mastery should be required to make leather recovery actually work.




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Spiritviper did the research on this back in 2003...
06/25/2005, 15:35:54

    Herry Hardfoot writes:

    According to him, just acquiring the skill (leather, chain, etc.) isn't enough. You have to train the skill to expert/master level to get the corresponding benefits.




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while i am not a guru, i consider any editing cheating
06/23/2005, 04:20:43

    Ygg writes:

    while i believe in using the games "features" like multi-loot, i stay away from any mod which requires to fiddle with the game software
    and never had a problem with my mages .... never noticed even there was a bug




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As I said, purists would consider this cheating.
06/23/2005, 05:28:07

    Peter2 writes:





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Ah, but Ygg is NOT
06/23/2005, 06:47:06

    Zedd writes:

    a purist if he multiloots. Most "purists" consider that cheating!




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purist - cheater
06/23/2005, 07:09:18

    Ygg writes:

    i do not consider being a purist, but i like to play games at their facilities (including positive bugs) never using any foreign software to help or fiddle with the game code
    i personally believe many purists are hypocrits, best example for me was the original diablo with those calling themselves "legit" and then oddly not dropping any item when they died .....
    if someone uses cheats, i do not object either, that it the personal choice how someone wants to play the game - you paid for the game, you want to use tricks outside the game, fine with me




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Again, fair comment.
06/23/2005, 10:15:40

    Peter2 writes:

    A person plays the game the way it suits him/her best. I was never interested in speed games, for example. My aim was always to go everywhere and do everything that the game permits without losing any characters unless the game mandates it, like for example in Blackwind's Dungeon in MM3. I failed to do that in MM5; I never managed to beat the megadragon without losing at least one character.




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1st time i do all, then speed or special team
06/23/2005, 10:37:56

    Ygg writes:





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For me, a speed game
06/23/2005, 12:50:14

    Zedd writes:

    is not necessarily the fastest a game can be played. A speed game for me is to do all quests in the prpoer , designed manner, and removed all hostiles from the map, doing this is the shortest possible time.




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I am a true RPG player...I just do what I feel like Titan needs to die...dragon looks cute, let it live...things like that
06/23/2005, 14:24:14

    Dunerider The War Troll writes:





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I have a question . .
06/23/2005, 06:56:29

    Zedd writes:

    For some reason (and I have not been able to track down the cause), my game (an original Limited Edition V1.1) will ALWAYS lock up and requires a reboot if even ONE character goes insane. While it is possible to find a couple of items of insanity (maybe one in Freehaven and another in Blackshire), IIRC it is 1 month before those stroes restock. When I am trying one of my "speed" games, I usually edit in an item if insanity . . I don't see any other "cure". Suggestions are welcome!




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of sanity
06/23/2005, 07:13:25

    Ygg writes:

    the higher level werewolf can drop "of sanity" items, the top type (can't remember the exact name) drops high level items (rings/ammy/helm/...) ... try multi-loot them, there is always one (up to three) outside near the box




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Yea those are the Greater Werewolves (Red Pants type)
06/23/2005, 08:35:52

    Zedd writes:

    Like I said I can usually, if I'm patient get on "of sanity" item in Blackshire and Freehaven in early Jan. I don't usually get to the 2 other good magic shops until late Feb, although I could probablu advance that schedule for Alamos a little. The other good one is in Paradise Valley and is a bit tougher due to all those hydras and titans.




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my recollection on magic shops
06/23/2005, 08:46:36

    Ygg writes:

    Castle Alamos is definitely best Magic Store, next is Freehaven Centre, Paradise Valley looked ordinary to me (the armor store is tops there for plate - haven't used in a long time)




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for your "druid" schedule > shop at circus ...
06/23/2005, 08:52:15

    Ygg writes:





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I( have been known to do that from time to time "lol".
06/23/2005, 12:55:01

    Zedd writes:





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recovery question
06/26/2005, 09:21:23

    vesselle writes:

    so just how important is recovery on the armor anyway? are we talking about 100ths of a second or what? i just can't tell any difference ingame when i've edited my sorceress.

    thanks for any information yall might have.





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Good question....
06/26/2005, 10:01:56

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