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(A bit of off-topic.) Are there any rivers in worlds of Might and Magic?
04/30/2021, 20:29:17
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Ramillies writes:
For years my answer would be yes. For instance, I can clearly remember the bridges over the rivers in New Sorpigal, Ironfist, Free Haven etc.The only problem is that these water bodies are no rivers. They have no spring and they're on completely level ground. All of them start in a sea and they go on in a while until they just stop and form some kind of a pool or a "dead end". So they could be perhaps called troughs but definitely not rivers  . Do you know about any "real" river in worlds of MM? A river that would have a spring and go downhill into the sea? I'm just wondering but now I think there is none (except perhaps in MM8 which I haven't played yet).
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Rivers
05/01/2021, 06:35:16
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Eric B writes:
In MM7, it could be argued that the waters in Barrow Downs, and Erathia (Which the Fort rests over) could be considered rivers.As for MM6, the closest I could find were ones that went from Frozen Highlands, south into Free Haven, then turned east and into the bay. Also, there's the one that goes from the hills in Silver Cove, and dumps into Bootleg Bay. Some food for thought; I'll look into this more tonight. BTW...in "My" thread farther down, I posted an observation about the weather in Might & Magic, if you haven't already seen it...
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Maybe they were sloughs
05/01/2021, 12:42:49
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The Elf writes:
We have plenty of them locally. They're freshwater, empty into the sea, and are affected by tides. Louisiana has its bayous, which are similar. I don't know the origins of these streams of water. They obviously start from somewhere, but I've never hiked the length of one to see, and the maps don't show. It could be underground springs, for all I know. (I took Geology 101, but never took the second semester. Perhaps those classes would have been more enlightening!)True rivers, at least here in California, are snow melt run-off. There may be other sources, but I'm not aware of them, except for the Truckee River, which starts in Pyramid Lake in Nevada. and ends in Lake Tahoe on the Nevada-California border.
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re: Rivers
05/01/2021, 15:33:19
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Eric B writes:
Around my area, we have what are referred to as drains, creeks, and of course, the Huron River. The creeks and drains are usually no more than a ditch, and in most places, the Huron River is best described as a creek.Even though it's considered a river, there is usually no watercraft that goes along the Huron, except for the occasional canoe or rowboat. I honestly don't think it's deep enough to accommodate a power watercraft.
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The MM7 water bodies you mention may well be rivers.
05/04/2021, 14:49:48
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Ramillies writes:
They just flow into/out of the map boundary, so we can't know what's there. Actually I thought the solution was the same in MM6.(I also read your weather post. It was quite interesting, and I never had a need to consider it in such detail, but I haven't had anything to say about it.)
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Harmondale to Barrow Downs stream
05/04/2021, 18:07:04
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Eric B writes:
Looking at the maps, a few of the streams don't seem to match up with the maps of the adjacent lands. However...that stream that you cross going to White Cliff Caves, starts at a lake on the other side of the mountain that the caves are in. I looked at the maps for Harmondale and Barrow Downs, and that stream seems to *almost* match.With that being said...I sometimes wonder if the creators had wanted to have either a ship going to Barrow Downs, or perhaps even a Town Portal to Stone City, but for whatever reason, didn't. I've noted that they do have a couple of fountains, including one in the central area, of Stone City. Instead, to avoid having to spend a week walking there, you have to Town Portal to Mount Nighon, then go through a couple of dungeon/tunnels to get there. Very time consuming. And, I won't mention having to fight the eyes and minotaurs in Thunderfirst Mountain, or the gogs in the Nighon Tunnels.
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I hated having to slog my way through those tunnels to get to Nighon.
05/07/2021, 18:01:18
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Peter2 writes:
However, having got there and opened communication via Town Portal, I found it VERY useful to be able to find a shop open no matter what time of day it was. I lost count of the number of days I lost in MM6 because my backpacks were full, the shops were shut and I was just too consarned mean to just dump stuff and lose the money they would bring me! 
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Rivers or narrow streams offered an opportunity for weak parties to kill monsters
05/10/2021, 12:57:36
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Little Krishna writes:
I suppose everyone remembers it.
But I remember an exotic fight in BDJ's mod for MM6 Chaos Conspiracy on hardest level in Free Haven that stream near the Guild of Mind . The mod featured mercenaries from MM8 but much tougher , with plenty hit points and worth good exp reward . There're were scores of them . Long clicking .
Usually there're few fire archers in vanilla
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Bows are essential weapons in all the Might and Magic games.
05/10/2021, 17:20:37
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Peter2 writes:
Especially if there's a decently broad stream between your party and a collection of opponents with no ranged attacks. Most of the ones I remember are in Mire of the Damned. you have to watch out for the ghosts etc. and the harpies – especially the harpy witches – but the skeletons are no more than cannon fodder, metaphorically speaking.Somebody many years ago asked me what the key difference was between a mechanical engineer and a civil engineer. When I said I didn't know, he replied "A mechanical engineer makes artillery, a civil engineer makes targets." *shrugs* I guess he thought it was funny . . .
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Bows
05/11/2021, 13:11:39
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Eric B writes:
Strongly agreed. Usually the first skill I acquire for my party is the bow skill, so that I can pummel enemies from afar. It comes in VERY handy, especially in New Sorpigal; I can fire at the goblins from across that stream that goes between town and the Abandoned Temple.It's just too bad there are no streams in Bootleg Bay; that would make fighting those cannibal tribes somewhat easier there. I will offer a final observation about MM6 --- I find it interesting that you can't take a boat (Or even a stagecoach) to Harecksburg in Bootleg Bay...nor can you take a boat to Frozen Highlands. In looking at the map of Frozen Highlands, it does look like there's enough room in Bootleg Bay there to accommodate a dock and a ship outside Hargraeve.
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No stage to Bootleg Bay
05/12/2021, 11:42:17
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Peter2 writes:
Yes, I strongly agree with you on this one. I remember when I first played the game, I took a boat from new Sorpigal to Mist for something (I can't remember what – it was a long time ago  ) and I then wanted to get back to New Sorpigal. I ended up in Bootleg Bay instead, and once I got outside of Harecksburg I found that I had bitten off more than I could chew. I can't remember for certain how I got out of that one, but I think I escaped over the border into Free Haven and found somewhere quiet where my party could rest up and heal. I found that bows were very useful when I played MM3–mm5 and SoX, but in MM6 I found them to be key. I don't doubt that you could run a bow-free party once you got used to the game, but IMO they're absolutely essential for first-timers who intend to progress very far rather than restarting the game.
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I'm not sure I completely agree with you about the river in New Sorpigal
05/02/2021, 11:02:43
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Peter2 writes:
The bottom of a cliff is not an uncommon place for a spring. I think we have to give the game designers a little license about the slope of the ground – a gradient imperceptible to the human eye is enough to allow water to flow.And I'm certain that in MM8 a river runs from Alvar through Ravenshore into the sea just north of Regna. So I think yes, we got rivers
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Heh, that could be true .
05/02/2021, 18:25:17
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OK, I've kept quiet so far, but I have to say ...
05/11/2021, 19:58:47
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Bones writes:
... that the reason there are so few rivers of any length in M&M -- and indeed in all 3d games -- is that they are incredibly challenging to create.3D maps are built as terrain and then covered in tiles. A riverbed can be filled with a 'volume' of water and the surface can be covered with an animated tile to represent waves and flow, but the surface will be flat. The best rivers I've seen consist of a series of small pools. Waterfalls can be done nicely, as can slow moving large rivers, but anything with a gentle but visible downward flow can't be done effectively in any 3D worldbuilding kit I know of.
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That actually surprises me Bones
05/12/2021, 04:45:59
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Ossie writes:
Although water obviously flows downhill, the gradient can be incredibly subtle with long stretches that are essentially flat to the naked eye - I don't think most people consider that New York City "slopes" from north to south, or London from west to east (for example). I would have thought that developers could include a river snaking pretty much through the entire game across multiple maps without people worrying that there is no visible gradient throughout. Ending (or rather starting) at an unpassable mountain range at the edge of the map would be enough for those who really want some level of reality.But now that the point has been raised, I can't think of any either, so game developers obviously *DO* think like this. I just don't think they need to.
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That hadn't occurred to me, but now you mention it, I think I can imagine why.
05/12/2021, 11:52:08
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Peter2 writes:
I'm no one's idea of a programmer, but I guess that having to animate such a long stretch of scenery in a way subtle enough to appear realistic would be a huge resource hog.
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Ooh! That must be why. . .
05/12/2021, 12:16:12
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The Elf writes:
. . . the Civilization games from 4 on are so expensive, and take up so much memory. Their rivers are designed to LOOK as if they're moving, but are really sort of jiggling back and forth. (That's probably why, too, that they discontinued the World Builder (player-designed maps) feature.)
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It's hard to create them, but you could just make them flow in from the map boundary...
05/12/2021, 15:02:51
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Ramillies writes:
Essentially putting the river springs into the "uncharted" regions of the world (at least in MM's that have disjoint sections of world). I know that the sections connect together but there must be lots of ground in between those, because it takes 5 days to get from one to the other.MM7 actually seems to have made good use of this, but in MM6, all "rivers" can be traced from some pool of stagnant water at the one end, to the sea at the other, although they go across multiple sections sometimes.
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