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(Off-topic, sort of) Load * 8, 1
03/20/2021, 22:26:47

    The Elf writes:

    Trying to remember, but can't. I remember using that DOS command to access all the really, really old CRPGs, but I don't remember the first Might and Magic games as being that early. (I just checked out the instructions for running the original King's Bounty, which I believe came before the first Might and Magic. While you still had to have separate disks for characters and game play if you were using 5-1/4" disks, but not if you you were using 3-1/2".) The box doesn't say what hardware or what flavor of DOS was required, but it did mention that the illustrations were from an Apple computer, which we never had. (Our first computer was a Commodore D-128. Since we both were working and had little time to take turns, we quickly bought an extra Commodore C-64 so that Papa Elf could use it for keeping all his financial records, while I got to play games on the D. I'll always be grateful for that.)

    I remember playing Phantasie, and then Wizardry, in the old DOS format. You really had to love PC games to play anything back then! For those of you who aren't old enough to remember, here's how you played a typical game, after opening the box it came in:
    1. Make copies of all disks in the box;
    2. Label the copies;
    3. Put original disks away in a safe place, away from excess heat or anything magnetic;
    4. Check manual for instructions for how to set up DIPP switches, if necessary;
    5. Check manual for instructions for editing access commands, if necessary;
    6. Insert first disk copy into disk drive;
    7. Type in "Load * 8, 1 (DOS/machine language instructing computer to read device in 8 [disk drive] and load those into in device 1 (memory set aside for your program
    8. Create characters for your game (most RPGs then had 6 or 8 characters in the party
    9. Insert blank, formatted disk into drive to receive character stats;
    10. Remove character disk;
    11. Re-install first program disk;
    12. Play game for about 10 minutes, before game comes to a sudden halt;
    13. To play further, follow proof-of-purchase instructions typically worded (for example) as:
    "Type in word 19 in paragraph 5 of page 28 in game manual included with your game" (Apparently game pirates were considered to be too dumb to make Xerox copies of game manuals);
    14. Re-type the word, because you typed in the wrong word or misspelled it;
    15. Continue playing game;
    16. Decide to stop because it's now midnight and your alarm will go off in precisely 6 hours;
    17. Remove current disk from drive;
    18. Insert "Save Game" disk;
    19. Save game;
    20. Insert character disk;
    21. Save characters;
    22. Remove disk from drive;
    23. Turn off computer;
    24. Turn off monitor;
    25. Put dust cover over keyboard;
    26. Brush your teeth and go to bed.
    Whew!





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Commodore memories
03/21/2021, 05:11:05

    Eric B writes:

    Wow, a FLOOD of memories came back while reading this. My aunt had a Commodore 128, and I also remember a couple of more steps:

    5.1 - Turn on the monitor, disk drive, then computer/keyboard (In that order)
    5.2 - When the display showed, type "go64" to go from D-128 to C-64 mode. Or, you could also shortcut by holding the key with the Commodore logo on it as you turned on the computer/keyboard, before the display showed.

    Back then, I wasn't into "Dungeons and Dragons" style games; I was more of an Infocom child. It's Infocom that I credit for my love of writing to this day!





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As you say, a FLOOD of memories
03/21/2021, 12:10:23

    Peter2 writes:

    My first meeting with computer gaming was with the origonal Crowther-Woods "ADVENTUR" game (aka "Colossal Caves") – not "Adventure", because in those days a fileame couldn't contain more than 8 characters. I cannot remember exactly when that was. However, I do remember being told "A voice in your ear whispers "PLUGH" . . .

    Our first computer was a 48K Oric-1. Before many games were available for it, I spent I don't know how many evenings going through the magazines, laboriously entering the program from a script in a magazine, saving the thing to to tape (saving and loading using tape was a real trial) and a few days later, writing back to the publisher pointing out the bugs in it (and in some cases giving fixes for them)! It was so much easier when Level 9 started publishing their games. I still remember their take on the Crowther-Woods "Adventur" and its two sequels, as well as "Lords of Time".

    Later on we got a Commodore. I can't remember which one it was, but it used 3.5" floppies. That was just about the time when Eye of the Beholder 2 (The Legend of Darkmoon) was published.

    I could go on, but I have to go and mow the lawn before we get another spell of wet weather . . .





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Over here, it was a magazine called Electronic Gaming (or something like that)
03/21/2021, 13:17:00

    The Elf writes:

    Every issue had a simple game you could "create" by meticulously following the instructions. They also had a simple "bug-proofing" routine for you to use to find out if you'd made any typing errors. It sure was a great way to learn ASCII!

    Does anyone remember the old Computer Gaming World magazine? Every issue had an RPG/adventure game hint person they called (blank space--senior moment--@#$%^&!!)
    Anyway, Jon van Canegham named one of the monsters in MM3 after her. That was the first "Easter egg" type thing I ran across in gaming.





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Wasn't that "Scorpia", or something like that?
03/25/2021, 13:50:25

    Ramillies writes:

    I heard a story that a reviewer going by that name (or something similar) published a long review of MM2 in which she basically said that everything in that game is dumb, wrong or both. In response, JVC put a monster of the same name in MM3 (which had a form of a fat, ugly woman ).

    However I'm not sure if it has anything to do with what you mention.





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Yes! Scorpia, absolutely.
03/26/2021, 14:02:00

    The Elf writes:

    I hadn't seen that particular review at the time, but otherwise enjoyed "her" comments in Computer gaming World. I found out later that "she" was actually a smart-alecky guy.

    Later on, I discovered that the hints in Computer Games Strategy Plus (later shortened to Strategy Plus) were much more complete, as were Shay Addams' various publications.





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Those were the days, eh?
03/21/2021, 12:51:56

    Rustavius writes:

    I played MM1 and MM2 on C-64. I was so excited that they were on 5.25 inch floppy disks and not cassette tapes, because the floppy disks loaded faster.

    Seems like a different world. lol





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Forgot to mention. . .
03/21/2021, 13:05:22

    The Elf writes:

    . . .that some games (Phantasie, for example) required a separate Dungeon disk, which required another remove-insert-play-remove-re-install every time you went into and out of a dungeon. Different maps within a game also required a separate disk for each one.

    Someone told me how to toggle Skyrim from mouse to gamepad and back, but I had an awful time of it, because I couldn't find the EDLIN command! (I found out how to do it later, though.)





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Cassettes vs. floppy disks
03/21/2021, 19:29:20

    Eric B writes:

    I'd forgotten about those magazines with program scripts. We had a TI 99/4A in our house, and my parents subscribed to a magazine called Compute! (Or was it Compute! Gazette? I can't remember; it's been entirely too long ago now!) Anyway, my mom would spend HOURS inputting the programs from these magazines into TI Extended BASIC (Which was on its own cartridge, as opposed to simple BASIC, which you didn't need anything special to run.) And, of course, the frustration when something didn't quite work, and she'd get an error thanks to either a typo, or something in the actual command that the machine couldn't do, causing her to have to play with the numbers, in an effort to get it to work.

    Or, the disappointment when you'd finally type RUN, only to discover that the game really wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

    I also remember the cassettes. The sound that the computer would put on the tape (Yes, it was audible, and was sort of/kind of similar to the sounds from a dialup modem, which came started to use about a sesquidecade later.) Anyway, I remember when we upgraded to 5¼" floppy disks, how fast they were! Oh, and you also had to have the tape recorder's volume turned up so that the computer could hear the sound. Otherwise, forget it!

    By the way...about my earlier comment about not being into D&D-type games as a child. I take that back. There was ONE on the TI that I enjoyed -- Tunnels Of Doom. They had quite a few third-party games available on that platform (On floppy disk.) Pretty much, the dungeons and game play were all the same, but the premise, monsters, items, party member(s), and quest items differed from game to game. My favorite from that platform was "Daring Adventures In KMart."

    One more thought. Infocom games came on floppy disks, but I remember those would take FOREVER to load. Probably about as long as Scott Adams' Adventure games did on cassette, if not longer.





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Oh yes, floods of memories!
03/21/2021, 21:52:15

    The Elf writes:

    I remember when playing games, it seemed to take FOREVER to load--first waiting for the program to read the disk, then for it to load the program, then FINALLY you could actually play--until you went to a different "map" (inside and outside buildings were different maps, for instance,) when you had wait and wait again.
    It was driving me nuts (God give me patience, and I want it NOW!) so I started keeping crochet hooks,scissors,and yarn nearby. I actually crocheted Afghans* for my mother, my sister, and myself, along with sweaters and baby clothes for a pregnant friend while waiting for the 'puter to load. Fun times!

    * No long-haired dogs or people from Afghanistan were harmed in the process. "Afghan" in this sense is strictly meant as a lap rug or couch throw.





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The dust cover as the last step - memories!
03/22/2021, 01:22:45

    Ossie writes:

    Tunnels of Doom was awesome. We had a group of 4 mates who played together, and we all always took control one one of the characters. Except we had one guy who was *obsessed* with the fountains, which provided a random change, +ve or -ve, to either hit points (your theoretical maximum) or wounds (your current HPs). As soon as we found a fountain, we'll all just leave for 45 minutes while he tried to get his character to the maximum 120 HPs (which, of course, was an equally great chance of killing them permanently by bringing them to zero HPs).

    "Or, the disappointment when you'd finally type RUN, only to discover that the game really wasn't all it was cracked up to be". They were ALL like that!





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Did anyone play Temple of Apshai?
03/22/2021, 19:42:04

    Rustavius writes:

    This conversation is well times because that game's been on my mind for some reason.




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OMG! Yes, Temple of Apshai
03/23/2021, 12:38:52

    The Elf writes:

    Thank you. I've been racking my brains trying to think of its name. Yes, I spent many hours playing it, but never quite able to finish. It had a sequel or two also, didn't it?




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I think there were two sequels.
03/23/2021, 19:15:53

    Rustavius writes:





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I think you're right.
03/24/2021, 11:16:45

    The Elf writes:





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I never came across those
03/24/2021, 21:07:48

    Peter2 writes:

    Having started out on the Adventure games, I continued with those for some time. My memory's a bit hazy about that period after all this time, but I think I played Sierra's Space Quest 2 and 3 (I don't think I played 1), but I gave up on SQ4 which I thought was ridiculous. IIRC, you started out in what seemed to be a junkyard for spaceships, trying to catch a consarned rabbit with nothing but a piece of rope. And there was just one particular place you could form a noose and hide to trap the thing. And so it went on . . . And I seem to remember having a go at at least one one of the King's Quest games. But I didn't have an awful lot of spare time back then – there was so often something else that needed doing.

    But then somebody put me on to Tunnels and Trolls, which I think was JVC's game before starting on the Might & Magic games. That was pretty good, but then I found MM3 and that was it. That really was the goods. And I never looked back. The only thing I slightly regret was that I never came across a copy of Zork that I could play on any of the computers I had before I left the adventure games behind and moved on to the RPG games. I played it once for an hour, but that was as a guest on a big computer whose main business had nothing to do with me.





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The first MMs
03/25/2021, 12:22:18

    The Elf writes:

    MM and MM2 were unique. I don't remember a lot about MM, except that there was a force field at the very end that I never could figure out how to cross.

    MM2 was really, really different. for one thing, it had a castle that you could (with much effort) claim and fit out as your home, complete with trainers (for leveling up) and a merchant IIRC, before Bethesda ever came up with the idea for the same thing Elder Scrolls series. Gender played a role, too. There were certain areas that could only be accessed by females, so that first, you had to have at least one female in your party, and second, you had to leave the males waiting by the wayside while the girls went into the otherwise-forbidden area. Instead of buying spells, your mages/clerics had to run across them or receive them as loot. To cast, you had to type in the exact wording--difficult for not-so-dexterous players. Also IIRC, there were magical areas in the clouds you could sometimes teleport to.

    All in all, groundbreaking in their own way.

    P. S. I didn't care so much for King's Quests so much as Hero's Quest (true RPG, as opposed to adventure.) Sierra later had to change the name to Quest for Glory, because there was already a Hero's Quest out there (that nobody seems to remember.) I had both versions, and Quest for Glory is slightly different than Hero's Quest. I've still got the boxes and manuals, but the 5.25" disks somehow were destroyed/lost--who knows?





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Then, of course, there were hints and tips. . .
03/22/2021, 12:15:06

    The Elf writes:

    . . .if you knew how to find them! There was no World Wide Web then. Certain universities had WANs and LANs accessible by savvy non-academes who knew somebody who could grant them access. (Here on the West Coast, there was The Well, but whether it was run by University of California or Stanford, I don't know.)

    [Aside: Papa Elf and I beta-tested America On-Line (AOL), but I doubt that our suggestions carried much weight. Google hadn't been thought of yet.]

    I don't know when Redneck started the Tavern, since I didn't learn about it until about 1998.

    The various gaming magazines usually had tips and hints, but with only one per monthly issue, you could never be sure your favorite game would be included. AFAIK, the monthly publications "Computer Games Strategy Plus" and Shay Addams' "Questbusters" were the only multi-game hint mags around.

    The breach was partially filled by Prima and Brady, two different book companies who worked with early copies of games and their developers. Since the books were designed to be released (and sold) alongside the games they covered, last-minute game changes sometimes made the info incorrect. Bethesda published their own hint books in-house. Might and Magic was Prima all the way, but not at first.

    The earliest hints and tips were given by the developers themselves. The instruction manuals usually included a 900 telephone number you could call for assistance. (900 numbers were toll calls in which part of the toll went to the issuer, the other part to the telephone company.) I used them many times--the cost was around $0.50 or so. I actually spoke to game developers, who listened patiently while I explained my difficulty, and once I reported a bug that nobody else had come across. In every case, they'd give sound advice.

    Once the WWW was up and running, Google came along. Their original name was "Googol," as in 1 followed by 100 zeros, to indicate that they had a googol of topics on hand. However, they soon discovered that Googol was a copyrighted term, so they went with the phonetic "Google." Or so I've read. Somebody else coined the term "wiki," and the web hints were off to a flying start. Trouble is, you can't get much feedback for specific difficulties in a wiki.

    Bless the Tavern, Powers That Be!





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Hint Books
03/22/2021, 22:39:40

    Eric B writes:

    Oh yes, I definitely remember those hint books. The ones I'd see were usually for Interactive Fiction games (Such as the ones from Infocom.) They'd often have other publishers' games included. As I recall, they'd usually have maps, and also numbers over the rooms; looking at the numbers, it would tell you what you needed to do there.

    Infocom would usually publish their own clue books; those would come with a special marker, which would "Uncover" the clues when you'd pass it over the answer area, like a hi-liter. One thing I got a bang out of was Infocom would often include fake problems, and if you uncovered the answer, it would chide you for not uncovering the answers that you needed -- often in a humorous way. (Sometimes they'd even have two or three fake answers to go with the question!) I remember seeing them in book stores, alongside the Infocom games. But then, these were Interactive Fiction, so I guess it could be argued that they were computer versions of those "Pick Your Adventure" style books.

    Adventure International had clue books which had numbered words for the various games. You'd locate the problem that you were having, and it would have a list of numbers in response. You'd then match the numbers to the associated words to form the answer. As I recall, they were more or less straight and to the point, with no red herrings or humor like Infocom used. Though, for one of their later games, there was a part in the instruction booklet for the game which had a spoiler about one area, which they'd written with the words spelled backwards, for those who didn't want to see the spoiler.

    Two good things about Interactive Fiction -- it improved my vocabulary (I'd learned early on to keep a dictionary handy whenever I'd play such games) AND it helped teach me to type.





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Sierra On-Line (May it rest in peace!) . . .
03/23/2021, 12:44:27

    The Elf writes:

    . . .had a sort of similar hint book for the early Adventure/RPG games that Roberta Williams was (mostly) the designer of. I don't remember exactly how they worked, but I seem to remember a "pane" of colored cellophane that you passed over a jumble of words so that the answer stood out. Some of those answers were rather humorous, too.




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Sierra hint books
03/23/2021, 13:43:08

    Eric B writes:

    Yes, they had the answers "Hidden" behind a reddish design, if you will. To look at the answer, you'd hold the pane of red cellophane over the answer area, and the red design would blend in with the cellophane, making the words "appear" through the pane.

    As I recall, Sierra also had some phony clues, with admonishments for looking at the phony ones.

    I enjoyed Sierra games when I was a teen. When my aunt got that Tandy 1000 computer back in 1988 or so, suddenly my beloved Infocom games became so "Antiquated." Instead of having to use my imagination to see what was happening, now I actually had crude (By today's standards) graphics to actually see the action, including a character you could move around the "Room" to do different things. Of course, that begat different frustrations --- having to have your character's sprite in just the right place to do certain things, for example.

    Onward and upward.





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Well, many of those things haven't changed too much .
03/25/2021, 13:44:21

    Ramillies writes:

    Especially points 15, 16, 19, 26 and maybe 23 & 24 . Though the point 16 sometimes turns to "decide to play the whole night through because it's now 4 AM and your alarm would go off in 3 hours" .

    Anyway: since I played some old games quite a lot (using DOSBox), I encountered the anti-pirate checks with the manual quite often. One of my favorite games, the old Master of Orion 1, had a colorful list of all spaceships in the game, and each had its own name (though you could give your ships any name you wanted). The game always wanted you to "identify" a ship it displayed on the screen -- you had to choose the correct name from 6 choices.

    (And by the way, maybe some sort of it persists even to this day. I guess there are still people who would take the question "How to fly?" in MM's as a "Proof-of-No-Purchase" .)





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How to fly
03/26/2021, 14:12:51

    The Elf writes:

    I asked that very question myself, when I got the Millennium Edition of Might & Magic, which contained the earlier games, but not their manuals, which were long gone, along with the disks and boxes, which I had given to the guy I sold an outdated computer to.

    At least one game had a sort of paper disc with holes and several layers. When you rotated the disk so that certain pictures showed through one hole, you had to identify the picture in one of the other holes. I think it might have been one of the Bard's Tales, but I'm not sure.





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The Bard's Tale games had the wheel, as well as......
03/26/2021, 17:25:07

    Ossie writes:

    the original C64 version of Pool of Radiance. It was a primative form of copy protection. At every boot-up, the computer would request that you match a random combination: "match the word 'foot' on the outer wheel with the dwarven rune on the inner wheel, and type the word that is revealed"

    Great times!





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The Gold Box games! How could I forget?
03/27/2021, 12:10:06

    The Elf writes:

    I played every SSI (Strategic Simulations Inc,)game that I could get my hands on--not easy when the only source for games was:
    1. The monthly computer show in either the civic auditorium or the county fairgrounds.
    2. Mail order from Egghead or Chips and Bits (neither of which had brick and mortar stores then.)
    3. A day-long outing to The Bay Area for a visit to the original Fry's store or Weird Stuff.
    At that time, if I'd been offered a $500 gift certificate to either Fry's or Macy's, I'd have chosen Fry's, hands down.
    The various forays into Krynne taught me how to map dungeons correctly (white rectangle for unlocked door, black rectangle for locked door, etc.) I don't remember where I saw the dungeon maps in print--I think maybe the manual for Pool of Radiance showed one beginner dungeon. Being at that time a professional map draftsman, I ate up map-drawing like candy.




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