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For Ramillies. Remember our discussion about pronunciation in English? Have a look at this on *evil grin*
06/13/2019, 17:36:47

    Peter2 writes:

    I was looking through one of my old files and I came across this poem. Each pair of lines rhymes. It also includes a ninth pronunciation of the letters "ough" – the word lough is pronounced similarly to the Scottish "loch", with a short "o" and a gutteral "ch". Enjoy!

    English as she is spoke

    I take it you already know
    Of tough and bough and cough and dough
    Others may stumble, but not you,
    On hiccough, thorough, lough and through.
    Well done! And now you wish perhaps
    To know of less familiar traps?
    Beware of heard, a dreadful word,
    That looks like beard and sounds like bird.
    And dead – it’s said like bed not bead,
    For goodness’ sake don’t call it deed!
    Watch out for meat and great and threat
    (They rhyme with suite and straight and debt),
    A moth is not a moth in mother
    Nor both in bother, broth in brother,
    And here is not a match for there
    Nor dear and fear for bear and pear.
    And then there’s rose and close and lose –
    Just look them up – and goose and choose
    And cork and work and card and ward
    And font and front and word and sword
    And do and go and thwart and cart.
    Come, come, I’ve hardly made a start!
    A dreadful language? Man alive,
    I’d mastered it when I was five.





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06/13/2019, 21:50:40

    Ramillies writes:

    To be honest, I got lost in the -ough words. I will have to consult a dictionary tomorrow I guess. However the "less familiar traps" seemed to be more familiar to me. I only didn't get how on earth can "suite" rhyme with "meat". I was so eager to know that I looked it up and... well, it apparently can .

    (But anyway, when it comes to dreadful languages, I haven't ever seen a more dreadful language than Sanskrit. The whole English pronunciation is nothing compared to the awful convoluted-ness of that language. )





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I must confess that I don't know the first thing about Sanscrit apart from the name
06/14/2019, 20:25:33

    Peter2 writes:

    I can cope with German and most of the Latin-based languages, and I can puzzle out a little bit of Japanese and rather less of Mandarin (it would be a large exaggeration to say I could read them), but I don't know any of the Scandinavian, Slavic or Finno-Ugric languages, or those based on Greek. And I wouldn't know where to start with the Arabic or Indo-Chinese groups.




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Be glad that you don't
06/16/2019, 08:30:17

    Ramillies writes:

    It (obviously) has all the 8 original Indo-European cases, three numbers (singular, dual, plural) and interestingly three voices (active, passive and medium; however the differences between the active and medium voice wore out quickly, so they both have in fact an active meaning pretty much all the time (just some verbs use one and some the other)), but that's still pretty normal.

    However, it has a ton of curious rules (called sandhi) to join adjacent words into one unit, with various changes at the boundaries of the words. For instance, nara(h) tatra ("[a] man [is] there") = narastatra (without spaces and pauses in speech). So in this way, a whole sentence can be written as just one "word", with a bunch of weird changes in the middle. (Also the fact that it's written using a script that has 1 character per syllable does not help, because the words generally join one another "in the middle of a character".) So it sometimes happens that you split the mess in a wrong way, then spend half an hour trying to translate the thing, and then your teacher shows you another splitting that leads to an immediate and simple translation.

    Second, it has some crazy composites. It's like German, only several times worse, especially when it comes to composites that just mean several things together. A typical example (with a bad transliteration, so that you can more easily read it ): mrgavyaghrasimharksagajapurne vane = in a forest (vane) full (purne) of gazelles (mrga), tigers (vyaghra), lions (simha), bears (rksa) and elephants (gaja).

    And third, it's probably the only language that I know of which has a lot of nouns with several roots. Many words have three of them, like the well-known word "raja": there is the strong root (rāja-), the middle root (rājā-) and the weak root (rajňā-). Each of these roots is used only in certain cases (with number and gender included), so for instance, in singular, masculine and feminine nouns use the strong root for nominative and accusative, but the neuter nouns use the middle root for them; and all of them use the weak root for the other cases. (And it gets more complicated with the other numbers. )

    And to make it even worse, it has an awful lot of words. In English, one word has pretty much always more than one meaning, so you don't need to know a whole lot of words. In Czech, the relationship is pretty much 1:1. But in Sanskrit, it's more like 5 words for any single meaning. When I was learning, I knew no less than 6 words for a "king", for instance, all of them being used interchangeably. (And the situation was the same even for some weird words, like "arrow" — I think I knew 3 words for that, now I can recall only two.)

    So be glad that you don't know anything about it. But — if you would like some serious mental challenge — you could try to learn it .





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Wow. Rather you than me – very much so!
06/17/2019, 06:52:10

    Peter2 writes:

    I have some interest in languages, but more from a practical point of view. I was deeply involved with patents of invention for many years, which explains my interest in Japanese and Chinese, and I did Latin at school, which is why I don't have too much trouble with the Romance languages, but my core education was in the sciences, specifically chemistry. The rest came along almost by accident.

    If language is an interest of yours, there are two science fiction books you might enjoy in which language is central to the plot: "Babel-17" by Samuel R Delaney, and "The Languages of Pao" by Jack Vance. I enjoyed both of them, although I slightly preferred "Babel-17".





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Well, my approach to languages is just the opposite.
06/18/2019, 18:31:31

    Ramillies writes:

    I learn only dead languages. The "living" ones are way too boring. If you try to learn any language that is still being spoken, you will end up in the mud of phrases like "Where is the train station?" or "How much does this ticket cost?" But in Latin, you get sentences like "And many were killed or wounded, before they could have spotted the hidden foe." Much more dramatic .

    (And then there are the awesome pieces of Sanskrit wisdom. I used to encounter at least one bit each week. Sentences like "Whoever mounts a tiger, a donkey, a camel, and/or a buffalo, will certainly die within six months" always had me laughing hard. (By the way, all the animals are a single composite, so it's actually not at all clear if you need to mount all four, or only one in order to die.))

    And thanks for the book recommendations. I don't think I saw language playing any greater role in any novel that I read, and having that as a central piece of the plot is something I would very much appreciate. I'll need to have a look at them.





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(Fix...)
06/18/2019, 18:33:18

    Ramillies writes:

    I meant "Whoever mounts a tiger, a donkey, a camel and/or a buffalo in a dream will certainly die within six months."




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American is she is spoke
06/17/2019, 20:11:20

    The Elf Herself writes:

    Ramillies, we've never met, but I think I'd enjoy having you at my dinner table. (And Bones and Peter2 too, it goes without saying.) Anyway, American English is slightly different from British. We use a lot more oxymorons, I think. One of my favorites:
    (In a shoe store) I don't like these shoes. They're a little big, and pretty ugly. (This might be described as "sort of specific." It's kind of unkind.)
    Who was it who said that England and America are two countries separated by a common language? (I think the same might be said for Spanish and Mexican.)




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P. S.
06/17/2019, 22:33:41

    The Elf Herself writes:

    Just remembered a song by George and Ira Gershwin, songwriters popular in the 1920's, '30's and '40's: "'S Wonderful." One line in it goes: "'s awful nice, 's paradise. . . .




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— The oxymoronic constructions seem to be pretty common in other languages, too.
06/18/2019, 18:20:01

    Ramillies writes:

    For instance, we in Czech often say "hrozně" or "strašně" (lit. terrible or horrible) to exaggerate things. "Mám se hrozně dobře." = lit. "I have a terribly good time," which needs to be understood like "I have a very good time."

    I guess this is a bit in the same vein as the English words "awesome" and "awful". Both of those seem to derive from the same word "awe", and still they have totally opposite meanings.

    (Sadly, I don't plan visiting America any time soon, and not even any time late. But if it somehow happened that I emerged there, I can let you know. )





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That sort of construction has increased in popularity over the past 10–15 years
06/18/2019, 19:53:55

    Peter2 writes:

    It used to be very common to hear something like "I had a seriously good time", where "seriously" means "very".

    Also, I have seen the word "aweful" used in the sense of awe-inspiring, but if my memory serves me rightly, it was in an 18th-century description of the then newly rebuilt St Paul's Cathedral. "Aweful" with that spelling is not given in the dictionary that I use most often (Chambers Dictionary), but it does give awe-inspiring as an alternative meaning for "awful".

    Archaisms still do appear in English, especially in names. For example, there is a church in a district of Chester which is frequently referred to as "St. Mary without the walls". In this case "without" means "outside", it does not mean that the Church lacks walls!





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Yabbut. . .(American slang meaning, "Yeah, but. . ."
06/19/2019, 14:31:58

    The Elf Herself writes:

    There are regional language differences (and certainly pronunciations!) in American. While we aren't the largest country in the world, by any means, the distance between New York and Los Angeles, for example, is about the same distance as London to Moscow, or Rome to the Gulf of Aden. People on our east coast tend to drop the final "R" ("pow-ah" instead of "pow-er," for instance) because most of the old-timers in the south and east had their roots in England, Scotland and Wales, while the late-comers in the west were gold-hunters lured by California's Gold Rush, former Spanish and Mexican colonists who stayed on after a lot of the western territories became part of the U. S., and penniless Southern veterans on the losing side of our terrible Civil War of the 1860's. As such, the U. S. has some regional grammatical constructions that sound weird to those from other parts of the country. For example, the plural form of "you": east: "youse," midwest: "you-uns," south: "you all," further south and parts of southwest: "y'all."
    A lot of Texans put "tars" on the car, and apply "tire" to their roads. In Oklahoma (right above Texas) when I was unable to figure out the lock on the door to the toilets, I was told to "kindly mash down on the button." And when setting the table for dinner, and I forget something, I'll usually exclaim, "Oh, wait! I'll get you a fork." (Never "I'll get a fork for you.")
    Texans also add another syllable to most single syllable words. "Hell" is always "Hay-ull," and the common expletive for defecation is always "shee-it!"
    When I was in Pennsylvania some years ago, someone asked me if I wanted to go get a "frozen custard." I was baffled--was there really a dessert or snack consisting of taking the trouble to bake a custard, then freeze it? Turns out that was east coast-ese for soft ice cream (called "frosties" in California.) Sandwiches served on long buns are heroes, submarines, po' boys (southern for "poor boys," and I forget the ones starting with "B." Bones probably knows.)
    So America is a country separated by several English-sounding languages! (Peter2, I think the U. K. is, too. I don't think a Liverpudlian, a Geordie, a Welshman, and a Northern Irishman would be able to converse much beyond, "Anyone want a pint?" [And if a pint is to be had, I'll be right there!])




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And here's you a pint!
06/19/2019, 16:12:19

    The Elf Herself writes:

    Forgot to mention: I just finished ageing and cask-conditioning a keg or two of Elf's Grammarian Grolsch, my latest Elf brew. In case you've never had a mug of my magical Elf ales, they taste just the way you want them to. If for any reason you don't imbibe alcoholic beverages, when you drink you won't have any alcohol at all. If you prefer a stronger drink, it will taste like the finest, peati-est Islay Scotch, or 100% blue agave tequila, Napoleon brandy, slivovitz or whatever you prefer. But no matter how much you drink, you will only get happy, never drunk. You'll be able to pass a sobriety taste. So cheers, everybody! (And here's you and yours an extra pony keg, Bones--just because.)




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P. P. S.
06/19/2019, 18:13:40

    The Elf Herself writes:

    Yes, I know Grolsch is a lager, not an ale. I was just using the term "ale" as a generic.




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